I had internet access at home but didn’t want to be entirely rude and sit there and check all of my shit constantly. So, this thread just turned into an 800 pound gorilla before my eyes. I wasn’t willing or able to sit down and cultivate the thread or respond to any one post in any meaningful manner.
I posted a response to the overall vibe.
But man, from getting called a weak and lazy GM to getting outright dismissed as attempting to be some kind of rebel. Jeez. Wild.
Githyanki Diaspora 
rpg.net: the sewering
RPG.net is just one of those places that when people post, I’m stunned it doesn’t devolve rapidly. You are much braver and patient than I am.
rpg.net: the sewering
RPG.net is just one of those places that when people post, I’m stunned it doesn’t devolve rapidly. You are much braver and patient than I am.
rpg.net: the sewering
RPG.net is just one of those places that when people post, I’m stunned it doesn’t devolve rapidly. You are much braver and patient than I am.
Gah. I had managed to resist that particular thread for my own sanity until now, as I’m afraid you managed to step on one of my buttons. 🙂 I hope I don’t come across as picking a fight, but that particular point just drives me nuts.
Well, if you want to talk about it, we’re here in my digital living room.
I trust you enough that you can pick a fight with me here and its cool.
Cool. In fairness, this is part of the swath of things I tend to avoid discussing (like the fact that I like rule zero and I am dissatisfied with PTA) because they’re a bit flammable, but I’ve got more than a little faith in the living room.
So I’m going to dip into metaphor here, because I think it’s a good match. When I was six or seven, I got two Lego sets for christmas. The old ones where you got a big grey square and built some sort of building on it. The first one was a police station and the other was something sci-fi, the Beta One Command base or something like that.
So, first thing I did with the both was build them as instructed, and the results were pretty cool. The police station was ok, but the space stuff was awesome. It had a monorail and everything. But after a while, I started mucking around with it, putting lasers on the monorail and stuff. I had to deconstruct some stuff to do so, and eventually I pulled over some pieces from the police station so I had space police. With lasers.
The suggestion that I need to accept the text of a book as a whole feels very much to me like someone criticizing my space police with lasers because I did not use all of the pieces. The value that they are judging this by (the value of the thing unused) is not the value I’m judging it by (what’s fun for me). It seems small to me.
Specifically, within the realm of gaming, if I accept that a) mechanics impact play and b) every group is unique, i don’t know how I can justify *not* modding/drifting/homebrewing or whatever it’s to be called.
Now, I totally understand that there are some legitimate issues that taking the text as gospel is a response to. It’s a natural response to people _not_ playing the game as written, and then saying it sucks. And it’s also a natural response to games which _accidentally_ push too much responsibility onto the GM because they do not support their own design goals. I get this. Games _should_ be playable by the book. People should be willing to try playing games by the book. These ideas are ones I can heartily endorse.
But the idea that I have any obligation to do so? With my group? At my table? The very thought fills me with middle class suburban rage.
You are posting to the guy whose group is currently hacking Spirit of the Century to work in D&D’s Sharn. I love game hacks. I love mixing my police stations with space stations. Love it.
That isn’t what I’m saying. It is apples and orangutans.
I’m saying that if in the course of every day play you are finding that you have to fudge and bend and twist to just get adventure and fun out of your game, something’s fucked. Either the GM created a shitty encounter with the tools given or the rules set just doesn’t work.
I’m not telling anyone what to do at their table. If fudging makes people happy, that is cool but if I was playing in a game with a whole lotta fudging, I’d want the group to look hard at the rules and figure out why the game we bought is failing us.
Well, this is why I’m comfortable bringing it up because, to be frank, I know you’re _not_ a purist, which is why I found the sentiment to be strongly out of place.
I posit that there’s a broad difference between “If you are not running the game as written” and “If you are running a different game entirely” and that difference is broad and fuzzy.
Flipped a bit, if I said “If you are running a game exactly as written, rather than taking the needs of your table into accout, you need to examine your decision” that’s pretty defensible, but it casts running by the book in an unfair light. The _point_ is that you should examine what you’re doing and why, and that is what I think we’re all getting at.
By it the same token, talking about how much you use of the rules and whether the book was worth getting puts the emphasis on what I think is the wrong part of the message, and does so in a way that alienates the most passionate and play focused folks out there.
Rob,
The fact is, by virtue of my sign-in handle, the games I have stated I enjoy playing in the past and the links in my sig, what I write is going to upset some people. I’m not thrilled by it but that is just how it is.
As shown in the thread, I’m willing to extend good will pretty damned far but definitely not as far as some.
Never meant to invoke your rage.
It is odd because at the table, with the dice rolling, friends laughing and shit being made up, I know that we agree and sync up more often than not.
*laughs* Dude, we’re actually synced up here more than it sounds. I don’t think we actually have any disagreement about the actual games, design or play, just about how certain presentations of ideas do or don’t come across, which is a vastly more technical subject.
And no worries on the rage front – as the Penny Arcade guys says, I smolder with generic rage. It is undirected and vanishes leaving a fresh pine scent.
*laughs* Dude, we’re actually synced up here more than it sounds. I don’t think we actually have any disagreement about the actual games, design or play, just about how certain presentations of ideas do or don’t come across, which is a vastly more technical subject.
And no worries on the rage front – as the Penny Arcade guys says, I smolder with generic rage. It is undirected and vanishes leaving a fresh pine scent.
*laughs* Dude, we’re actually synced up here more than it sounds. I don’t think we actually have any disagreement about the actual games, design or play, just about how certain presentations of ideas do or don’t come across, which is a vastly more technical subject.
And no worries on the rage front – as the Penny Arcade guys says, I smolder with generic rage. It is undirected and vanishes leaving a fresh pine scent.
Rob,
The fact is, by virtue of my sign-in handle, the games I have stated I enjoy playing in the past and the links in my sig, what I write is going to upset some people. I’m not thrilled by it but that is just how it is.
As shown in the thread, I’m willing to extend good will pretty damned far but definitely not as far as some.
Never meant to invoke your rage.
It is odd because at the table, with the dice rolling, friends laughing and shit being made up, I know that we agree and sync up more often than not.
Rob,
The fact is, by virtue of my sign-in handle, the games I have stated I enjoy playing in the past and the links in my sig, what I write is going to upset some people. I’m not thrilled by it but that is just how it is.
As shown in the thread, I’m willing to extend good will pretty damned far but definitely not as far as some.
Never meant to invoke your rage.
It is odd because at the table, with the dice rolling, friends laughing and shit being made up, I know that we agree and sync up more often than not.
Well, this is why I’m comfortable bringing it up because, to be frank, I know you’re _not_ a purist, which is why I found the sentiment to be strongly out of place.
I posit that there’s a broad difference between “If you are not running the game as written” and “If you are running a different game entirely” and that difference is broad and fuzzy.
Flipped a bit, if I said “If you are running a game exactly as written, rather than taking the needs of your table into accout, you need to examine your decision” that’s pretty defensible, but it casts running by the book in an unfair light. The _point_ is that you should examine what you’re doing and why, and that is what I think we’re all getting at.
By it the same token, talking about how much you use of the rules and whether the book was worth getting puts the emphasis on what I think is the wrong part of the message, and does so in a way that alienates the most passionate and play focused folks out there.
Well, this is why I’m comfortable bringing it up because, to be frank, I know you’re _not_ a purist, which is why I found the sentiment to be strongly out of place.
I posit that there’s a broad difference between “If you are not running the game as written” and “If you are running a different game entirely” and that difference is broad and fuzzy.
Flipped a bit, if I said “If you are running a game exactly as written, rather than taking the needs of your table into accout, you need to examine your decision” that’s pretty defensible, but it casts running by the book in an unfair light. The _point_ is that you should examine what you’re doing and why, and that is what I think we’re all getting at.
By it the same token, talking about how much you use of the rules and whether the book was worth getting puts the emphasis on what I think is the wrong part of the message, and does so in a way that alienates the most passionate and play focused folks out there.
You are posting to the guy whose group is currently hacking Spirit of the Century to work in D&D’s Sharn. I love game hacks. I love mixing my police stations with space stations. Love it.
That isn’t what I’m saying. It is apples and orangutans.
I’m saying that if in the course of every day play you are finding that you have to fudge and bend and twist to just get adventure and fun out of your game, something’s fucked. Either the GM created a shitty encounter with the tools given or the rules set just doesn’t work.
I’m not telling anyone what to do at their table. If fudging makes people happy, that is cool but if I was playing in a game with a whole lotta fudging, I’d want the group to look hard at the rules and figure out why the game we bought is failing us.
You are posting to the guy whose group is currently hacking Spirit of the Century to work in D&D’s Sharn. I love game hacks. I love mixing my police stations with space stations. Love it.
That isn’t what I’m saying. It is apples and orangutans.
I’m saying that if in the course of every day play you are finding that you have to fudge and bend and twist to just get adventure and fun out of your game, something’s fucked. Either the GM created a shitty encounter with the tools given or the rules set just doesn’t work.
I’m not telling anyone what to do at their table. If fudging makes people happy, that is cool but if I was playing in a game with a whole lotta fudging, I’d want the group to look hard at the rules and figure out why the game we bought is failing us.
SIDE NOTE
If anyone responds to this conversation between me and Rob, I’m erasing it.
This is our little conversation off to the side of the living room, standing near the fish tank, drinks in hand, nodding at what the other’s saying and laughing at one another’s shitty metaphors that are bound to crop up in these conversations.
SIDE NOTE
If anyone responds to this conversation between me and Rob, I’m erasing it.
This is our little conversation off to the side of the living room, standing near the fish tank, drinks in hand, nodding at what the other’s saying and laughing at one another’s shitty metaphors that are bound to crop up in these conversations.
SIDE NOTE
If anyone responds to this conversation between me and Rob, I’m erasing it.
This is our little conversation off to the side of the living room, standing near the fish tank, drinks in hand, nodding at what the other’s saying and laughing at one another’s shitty metaphors that are bound to crop up in these conversations.
Cool. In fairness, this is part of the swath of things I tend to avoid discussing (like the fact that I like rule zero and I am dissatisfied with PTA) because they’re a bit flammable, but I’ve got more than a little faith in the living room.
So I’m going to dip into metaphor here, because I think it’s a good match. When I was six or seven, I got two Lego sets for christmas. The old ones where you got a big grey square and built some sort of building on it. The first one was a police station and the other was something sci-fi, the Beta One Command base or something like that.
So, first thing I did with the both was build them as instructed, and the results were pretty cool. The police station was ok, but the space stuff was awesome. It had a monorail and everything. But after a while, I started mucking around with it, putting lasers on the monorail and stuff. I had to deconstruct some stuff to do so, and eventually I pulled over some pieces from the police station so I had space police. With lasers.
The suggestion that I need to accept the text of a book as a whole feels very much to me like someone criticizing my space police with lasers because I did not use all of the pieces. The value that they are judging this by (the value of the thing unused) is not the value I’m judging it by (what’s fun for me). It seems small to me.
Specifically, within the realm of gaming, if I accept that a) mechanics impact play and b) every group is unique, i don’t know how I can justify *not* modding/drifting/homebrewing or whatever it’s to be called.
Now, I totally understand that there are some legitimate issues that taking the text as gospel is a response to. It’s a natural response to people _not_ playing the game as written, and then saying it sucks. And it’s also a natural response to games which _accidentally_ push too much responsibility onto the GM because they do not support their own design goals. I get this. Games _should_ be playable by the book. People should be willing to try playing games by the book. These ideas are ones I can heartily endorse.
But the idea that I have any obligation to do so? With my group? At my table? The very thought fills me with middle class suburban rage.
Cool. In fairness, this is part of the swath of things I tend to avoid discussing (like the fact that I like rule zero and I am dissatisfied with PTA) because they’re a bit flammable, but I’ve got more than a little faith in the living room.
So I’m going to dip into metaphor here, because I think it’s a good match. When I was six or seven, I got two Lego sets for christmas. The old ones where you got a big grey square and built some sort of building on it. The first one was a police station and the other was something sci-fi, the Beta One Command base or something like that.
So, first thing I did with the both was build them as instructed, and the results were pretty cool. The police station was ok, but the space stuff was awesome. It had a monorail and everything. But after a while, I started mucking around with it, putting lasers on the monorail and stuff. I had to deconstruct some stuff to do so, and eventually I pulled over some pieces from the police station so I had space police. With lasers.
The suggestion that I need to accept the text of a book as a whole feels very much to me like someone criticizing my space police with lasers because I did not use all of the pieces. The value that they are judging this by (the value of the thing unused) is not the value I’m judging it by (what’s fun for me). It seems small to me.
Specifically, within the realm of gaming, if I accept that a) mechanics impact play and b) every group is unique, i don’t know how I can justify *not* modding/drifting/homebrewing or whatever it’s to be called.
Now, I totally understand that there are some legitimate issues that taking the text as gospel is a response to. It’s a natural response to people _not_ playing the game as written, and then saying it sucks. And it’s also a natural response to games which _accidentally_ push too much responsibility onto the GM because they do not support their own design goals. I get this. Games _should_ be playable by the book. People should be willing to try playing games by the book. These ideas are ones I can heartily endorse.
But the idea that I have any obligation to do so? With my group? At my table? The very thought fills me with middle class suburban rage.
Well, if you want to talk about it, we’re here in my digital living room.
I trust you enough that you can pick a fight with me here and its cool.
Well, if you want to talk about it, we’re here in my digital living room.
I trust you enough that you can pick a fight with me here and its cool.
Gah. I had managed to resist that particular thread for my own sanity until now, as I’m afraid you managed to step on one of my buttons. 🙂 I hope I don’t come across as picking a fight, but that particular point just drives me nuts.
Gah. I had managed to resist that particular thread for my own sanity until now, as I’m afraid you managed to step on one of my buttons. 🙂 I hope I don’t come across as picking a fight, but that particular point just drives me nuts.
RPG.net, and the intarweb gaming community in general, seems to be full of uber-defensive gamers that think the slightest hint of challenging the way they play means you’re going to kick in their door while they’re gaming, chainsaw their pets, set their friends on fire, and launch their game books into space. You can’t even suggest a contrary idea without an immense number getting pissy and snarky. And watch – in like five to ten years this idea will be in Exalted.
Fuck these chumps, seriously. It makes me so angry I can’t even go to that forum anymore.
RPG.net, and the intarweb gaming community in general, seems to be full of uber-defensive gamers that think the slightest hint of challenging the way they play means you’re going to kick in their door while they’re gaming, chainsaw their pets, set their friends on fire, and launch their game books into space. You can’t even suggest a contrary idea without an immense number getting pissy and snarky. And watch – in like five to ten years this idea will be in Exalted.
Fuck these chumps, seriously. It makes me so angry I can’t even go to that forum anymore.
RPG.net, and the intarweb gaming community in general, seems to be full of uber-defensive gamers that think the slightest hint of challenging the way they play means you’re going to kick in their door while they’re gaming, chainsaw their pets, set their friends on fire, and launch their game books into space. You can’t even suggest a contrary idea without an immense number getting pissy and snarky. And watch – in like five to ten years this idea will be in Exalted.
Fuck these chumps, seriously. It makes me so angry I can’t even go to that forum anymore.
DOLT!<>
You actually thought you could start a thoughtful, let alone meaningful conversation on RPG.NET?!?!??!?
Go carry a scorpion across the river, why don’t you?
Yeah, Victor, I hear ya but its one thing to get thoughtful or meaningful conversation and another to come back from 24 hours away to find 500 posts.
In his infinite wisdom, Matt Colville once told me: “Once an rpg.net thread passes the first page of comments, the comments become increasingly useless.”
In his infinite wisdom, Matt Colville once told me: “Once an rpg.net thread passes the first page of comments, the comments become increasingly useless.”
In his infinite wisdom, Matt Colville once told me: “Once an rpg.net thread passes the first page of comments, the comments become increasingly useless.”
Yeah, Victor, I hear ya but its one thing to get thoughtful or meaningful conversation and another to come back from 24 hours away to find 500 posts.
Yeah, Victor, I hear ya but its one thing to get thoughtful or meaningful conversation and another to come back from 24 hours away to find 500 posts.
DOLT!<>
You actually thought you could start a thoughtful, let alone meaningful conversation on RPG.NET?!?!??!?
Go carry a scorpion across the river, why don’t you?
DOLT!<>
You actually thought you could start a thoughtful, let alone meaningful conversation on RPG.NET?!?!??!?
Go carry a scorpion across the river, why don’t you?
There’s a reason why I haven’t created an RPG.net account, and this thread demonstrates it admirably.
The fact that this same phenomenon is becoming increasingly frequent on Boardgamegeek is making me alternately sad, furious and terribly terribly tired. I think it’s just a byproduct of having too many geeks (people?) together in a single online community.
😦
There’s a reason why I haven’t created an RPG.net account, and this thread demonstrates it admirably.
The fact that this same phenomenon is becoming increasingly frequent on Boardgamegeek is making me alternately sad, furious and terribly terribly tired. I think it’s just a byproduct of having too many geeks (people?) together in a single online community.
😦
There’s a reason why I haven’t created an RPG.net account, and this thread demonstrates it admirably.
The fact that this same phenomenon is becoming increasingly frequent on Boardgamegeek is making me alternately sad, furious and terribly terribly tired. I think it’s just a byproduct of having too many geeks (people?) together in a single online community.
😦
Judd…you’re amazing. I would never be able to deal with 500 posts afterwards. Bravo.
Honestly though, I think some where something was lost in translation. I was confused, scared. I nearly cried.
I think when people make a statement on these forums they have to be crystal clear, cover all bases.
“Vile” “scarecrows” “paper tiger” I have no idea what the hell these people are even talking about.
“Honestly though, I think some where something was lost in translation. I was confused, scared. I nearly cried. “
You and me both, sister.
Thanks.
hahah…”were” not “where” *sigh* see, I can’t even stand my own posts.
hahah…”were” not “where” *sigh* see, I can’t even stand my own posts.
hahah…”were” not “where” *sigh* see, I can’t even stand my own posts.
“Honestly though, I think some where something was lost in translation. I was confused, scared. I nearly cried. “
You and me both, sister.
Thanks.
“Honestly though, I think some where something was lost in translation. I was confused, scared. I nearly cried. “
You and me both, sister.
Thanks.
Judd…you’re amazing. I would never be able to deal with 500 posts afterwards. Bravo.
Honestly though, I think some where something was lost in translation. I was confused, scared. I nearly cried.
I think when people make a statement on these forums they have to be crystal clear, cover all bases.
“Vile” “scarecrows” “paper tiger” I have no idea what the hell these people are even talking about.
Judd…you’re amazing. I would never be able to deal with 500 posts afterwards. Bravo.
Honestly though, I think some where something was lost in translation. I was confused, scared. I nearly cried.
I think when people make a statement on these forums they have to be crystal clear, cover all bases.
“Vile” “scarecrows” “paper tiger” I have no idea what the hell these people are even talking about.